CORTRAMID Marine Week Experience

K

Kanogo

NROTC MIDN & USNA Appointee (declined)
Joined
May 4, 2021
Messages
32
This summer as a second year NROTC Midshipman I got to go to CORTRAMID East which was an incredible exposure experience. I really had a great time until I got to Marine week. Since I’m a Navy option I didn’t have much interest in the Marines to begin with so my bar was pretty low, but once I got to Camp Lejeune for Marine Week I was extremely disappointed with how they portrayed the Marines and I left Camp Lejeune with a bad taste in my mouth.

First of all, the leadership of Marines Week CORTRAMID was disappointing. After conducting our field training, everyone was exhausted and the leadership pushed us to complete the cycle by ensuring that our rifles were cleaned and all of our equipment got returned which took us all day. However, one Midshipman who happened to be the son of a USMC Colonel from Cherry Point got exempted from participating in all this cleanup and got to select 15 other Midshipman to join him and his father (a Colonel) for an afternoon of golf at Camp Lejeune. Even though this Colonel had nothing to do with ROTC or the CORTRAMID program, the fact that he did this is very strange. It’s even more upsetting that the leadership of Marine Week knew about this and allowed it.

This alone left a really bad taste in my mouth. Does an instance like this usually happen in the military?
 
The Marines aren’t for everyone and that is fine. Cleaning gear after a field op is very standard for the course. You clean gear before you clean yourselves. As to the Mids getting out of things… not fair, but life isn’t fair. It’s not always going to be fair out in the fleet in any service. Military service tends to be a family affair. Sometimes things like this happen. But, all it does is lead to bitterness in most cases and doesn’t help the young officers career with his peers.
 
+1 @NavyHoops! That was a fair and even-handed response.
Kanogo said:
After conducting our field training, everyone was exhausted and the leadership pushed us to complete the cycle by ensuring that our rifles were cleaned and all of our equipment got returned which took us all day.
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Absolutely real-life and would be a standard occurrence in the fleet.

The golf trip (if you have the details correct) was a bit of a surprise. At face value it is disappointing. My guess is that you don't know all the behind-the-scenes details on this but in the end... life isn't fair in or out of the service.
 
Kanogo said:
This summer as a second year NROTC Midshipman I got to go to CORTRAMID East which was an incredible exposure experience. I really had a great time until I got to Marine week. Since I’m a Navy option I didn’t have much interest in the Marines to begin with so my bar was pretty low, but once I got to Camp Lejeune for Marine Week I was extremely disappointed with how they portrayed the Marines and I left Camp Lejeune with a bad taste in my mouth.

First of all, the leadership of Marines Week CORTRAMID was disappointing. After conducting our field training, everyone was exhausted and the leadership pushed us to complete the cycle by ensuring that our rifles were cleaned and all of our equipment got returned which took us all day. However, one Midshipman who happened to be the son of a USMC Colonel from Cherry Point got exempted from participating in all this cleanup and got to select 15 other Midshipman to join him and his father (a Colonel) for an afternoon of golf at Camp Lejeune. Even though this Colonel had nothing to do with ROTC or the CORTRAMID program, the fact that he did this is very strange. It’s even more upsetting that the leadership of Marine Week knew about this and allowed it.

This alone left a really bad taste in my mouth. Does an instance like this usually happen in the military?
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So, I had actually walked away from this post and told myself to leave it alone, but I'm retired now and I find myself sometimes yelling at clouds. (Retired grumpy Captains will understand.)

Back in December of last year, you were lamenting the challenge of having to take calculus and physics and seemed surprised that the Navy required this. I and other posters here gave you some advice since you were seeking to shift to an AROTC scholarship but weren't sure you would get one.

So now we have a CORTRAMID experience where you are unhappy that you are expected to clean rifles. Or maybe you were unhappy that some people went to the golf course and you didn't get to go. Or maybe both. If the rifle cleaning annoyed you then I hope you don't choose AROTC. You may be surprised that Soldiers also clean rifles.

As to the people heading to the golf course, that was an audible called by a former PNS who wanted to impart some leadership to a few Mids before he retired. The intent was to explain how the Marine Corps works to a smaller group. I will admit the optic isn't great if you can't offer that to everyone but it was a short notice opportunity. I know about it because the Colonel and I are comrades of a sort, and he wanted to impart some last words of advice before his pending retirement. I'll just say he earned that privilege and the bad taste you have in your mouth speaks more about you than him or the Marine leadership.

You should do some personal reflection about what it is you want to do with your life. Previous posts indicate you aren't happy with the Navy because they want you to study STEM stuff. If the CORTRAMID issue bothers you that much, bring it up to your AMOI, MOI, or PNS. Hopefully they can help guide you a bit toward a better focus on your future career.

(Hears the bosun's pipe announcing 'secure') I now secure from yelling at clouds. "Turn to- Commence ship's work"
 
GWU PNS said:
So, I had actually walked away from this post and told myself to leave it alone, but I'm retired now and I find myself sometimes yelling at clouds. (Retired grumpy Captains will understand.)

Back in December of last year, you were lamenting the challenge of having to take calculus and physics and seemed surprised that the Navy required this. I and other posters here gave you some advice since you were seeking to shift to an AROTC scholarship but weren't sure you would get one.

So now we have a CORTRAMID experience where you are unhappy that you are expected to clean rifles. Or maybe you were unhappy that some people went to the golf course and you didn't get to go. Or maybe both. If the rifle cleaning annoyed you then I hope you don't choose AROTC. You may be surprised that Soldiers also clean rifles.

As to the people heading to the golf course, that was an audible called by a former PNS who wanted to impart some leadership to a few Mids before he retired. The intent was to explain how the Marine Corps works to a smaller group. I will admit the optic isn't great if you can't offer that to everyone but it was a short notice opportunity. I know about it because the Colonel and I are comrades of a sort, and he wanted to impart some last words of advice before his pending retirement. I'll just say he earned that privilege and the bad taste you have in your mouth speaks more about you than him or the Marine leadership.

You should do some personal reflection about what it is you want to do with your life. Previous posts indicate you aren't happy with the Navy because they want you to study STEM stuff. If the CORTRAMID issue bothers you that much, bring it up to your AMOI, MOI, or PNS. Hopefully they can help guide you a bit toward a better focus on your future career.

(Hears the bosun's pipe announcing 'secure') I now secure from yelling at clouds. "Turn to- Commence ship's work"
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Assuming it is all true - the optics of selecting the son for the small group, and allowing him to pick the other 15, seems suspicious.

A truly random group, or an objective measure on how to select the group, would make this small leadership group appear better.

That being said, my son faced this sort of thing at USNA. He didn’t care - it didn’t have any impact on his opportunities or performance.
 
@Kanogo, at the risk of piling on, I must question your motivations and understanding of your path. You seem to be bucking the requirements of your desired role.

You applied to USNA (and were admitted) and are now in NROTC despite having “no interest” (your words) in calculus and physics — two building blocks for midshipmen. Those STEM subjects are fundamental to USNA/NROTC because of the highly technical nature of surface warfare, aviation and submarines.

You’re seeking to transfer to AROTC but are unhappy that you were required to “complete the cycle” by securing your weapon and equipment despite your exhaustion. That step is essential to combat, where taking care of your gear ensures that it will take care of you.

My perspective comes from both my kids, each of whom is/was exposed to your own recent experiences. DD’s PROTRAMID was cancelled due to Covid, so she chose to attend Leatherneck. She commissioned as a Marine and recently completed TBS. And yes, securing weapons and gear was required after every single exercise — including those that were far more grueling than anything you did at CORTRAMID. DS is an MS3 in AROTC. After every field exercise or lab, he too must secure weapon and gear despite his exhaustion (and at the risk of missing a class or team meeting or study time).

So as others noted above, it’s probably time to reconsider why you’re pursuing an officer’s commission, what it entails, and what it leads to. That’s all separate from the perceived unfairness of the golfing outing. I agree with you that the optics of that weren’t good. It seemed clumsily executed and likely left a bad taste in others’ mouths as well. Positive intent notwithstanding, it probably could’ve been handled better. But again, that’s a separate issue from the fact that you’re chafing against fundamental, essential training for the profession you’re pursuing.
 
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MidCakePa said:
@Kanogo, at the risk of piling on, I must question your motivations and understanding of your path. You seem to be bucking the requirements of your desired role.

You applied to USNA (and were admitted) and are now in NROTC despite having “no interest” (your words) in calculus and physics — two building blocks for midshipmen. Those STEM subjects are fundamental to USNA/NROTC because of the highly technical nature of surface warfare, aviation and submarines.

You’re seeking to transfer to AROTC but are unhappy that you were required to “complete the cycle” by securing your weapon and equipment despite your exhaustion. That step is essential to combat, where taking care of your gear ensures that it will take care of you.

My perspective comes from both my kids, each of whom is/was exposed to your own recent experiences. DD’s PROTRAMID was cancelled due to Covid, so she chose to attend Leatherneck. She commissioned as a Marine and recently completed TBS. And yes, securing weapons and gear was required after every single exercise — including those they were far more grueling than anything you did at CORTRAMID. DS is an MS3 in AROTC. After every field exercise or lab — he too must secure weapon and gear despite his exhaustion.

So as others noted above, it’s probably time to reconsider why you’re pursuing an officer’s commission, what it entails, and what it leads to. That’s all separate from the perceived unfairness of the golfing outing. I agree with you that the optics of that weren’t good. It seemed clumsily executed and likely left a bad taste in others’ mouths as well. Positive intent notwithstanding, it probably could’ve been handled better. But again, that’s a separate issue from the fact that you’re chafing against fundamental, essential training for the profession you’re pursuing.
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This was much more elegantly stated than my diatribe. I promise not to yell at clouds anymore........for a week. 😉
 
I know, I know...as my naval brother said "yelling at clouds..." but it.just.won't.let.go.

"And yes, securing weapons and gear was required after every single exercise...including those that were far more grueling than anything you did at CORTRAMID. DS is an MS3 in AROTC. After every field exercise or lab, he too must secure weapon and gear despite his exhaustion (and at the risk of missing a class or team meeting or study time)."

A former student of mine, now a US Army Ranger (actually in a ranger unit) tells the story...when he had come in from ranger school, the field portion (in other words, it's over and he's ready to graduate)...he was so excited he ran to a phone and called his family to tell them of his great achievement. They had a great half-hour call. Walking back to "his area" his CSM (E9) ran into him and chewed him out seriously...

Why?

He still had his weapon; it hadn't been turned in, cleaned, etc.

His answer? I'm on my way now.

He was recycled to the "field phase." (He had to do it over.)

Because he called home before he cleaned and secured his weapon.

True story...we use it as an example in our leadership classes.
 
flieger83 said:
I know, I know...as my naval brother said "yelling at clouds..." but it.just.won't.let.go.

"And yes, securing weapons and gear was required after every single exercise...including those that were far more grueling than anything you did at CORTRAMID. DS is an MS3 in AROTC. After every field exercise or lab, he too must secure weapon and gear despite his exhaustion (and at the risk of missing a class or team meeting or study time)."

A former student of mine, now a US Army Ranger (actually in a ranger unit) tells the story...when he had come in from ranger school, the field portion (in other words, it's over and he's ready to graduate)...he was so excited he ran to a phone and called his family to tell them of his great achievement. They had a great half-hour call. Walking back to "his area" his CSM (E9) ran into him and chewed him out seriously...

Why?

He still had his weapon; it hadn't been turned in, cleaned, etc.

His answer? I'm on my way now.

He was recycled to the "field phase." (He had to do it over.)

Because he called home before he cleaned and secured his weapon.

True story...we use it as an example in our leadership classes.
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Priorities. Needs of the service first, which means you take care of required business - gear, people, security - before self. Except taking care of feet and food/rest/fluid is in the mix of required mission readiness actions, whether in an actual operational status, exercise, schoolhouse training or summer midshipman/cadet “just a taste” experience.
 
I have empathy for the OP, It seems like no one in charge of Cortramid-Marine week even for a second considered the trainee’s state of exhaustion when holding them to a standard of cleaning their equipment after nearly a whole day of training. They were really tired, it might have been hot and humid, and perhaps drizzling too, I mean they might have bad blisters or a bunion or sunburn to contend with too, and yet it was just like expected they would meet the standard anyway. That’s really, really not fair.

Both my father and grandfather served in the theater of combat - When they served and were tired like this, they or any soldier who wanted during those global conflicts would just call a timeout, and fighting would cease, to resume the next morning. They were empowered and their feelings and needs were prioritized. I’m not sure but from what I’ve read, I believe it’s the same in today’s military conflicts. There is no need to unreasonably push these future officers to finish cleaning weaponry if they are reporting they are feeling tired. They should have been asked if they were up to completing the cleaning after such a hard day or it could have waited. I hope the Marine Corps has learned something here today – a trainee was very disappointed in your actions USMC. Do better, Marine Corps. Semper defatigis.

Don’t even get me started on the selfish, careless act of that Lt. Colonel. What a terrible mar on his legacy – mentoring a group of people who are a couple of years away from commissioning and STARTING the journey he or she may soon be finishing. third grade taught us - If you don't have enough gum to share with the whole class, then don't chew any or share the few sticks you have with your buddies, right? What a disgrace. And while the others were golfing they dared to hold the OP to a standard like the entire time. OP, you should do a TED talk about your experiences here back at your unit this fall. I'm just glad you made it through this.
 
Wow you had to clean your weapon after an exersise, Even in ROTC we had to clean the M1 once a week wether used or not or get giged in formation. By the way M1 thumb is not fun.:) And we wonder why recruitments are down. Go Air Foce we have the best Golf Courses.
 
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OP, I am not going to mock you like some others. I get the frustration. I also dont think (hoping at least) you are complaining about the cleaning so much as using it to explain why the favoritism stung so bad. (ie the 16 got out of doing all those things)

But, I do want to answer that yes favoritism occurs in the military, as you have seen, but also everywhere else. The grass isn't any greener in the corporate world. Bosses picking a few favorites to attend a charity golf tourney the company donated to. Certain employees always getting corporate tickets even though it is supposedly randomly/evenly distributed. It happens everywhere.

Your best course is to learn to let it roll off your back when you are the grunt. And, if you find yourself in the position of leadership/power, try to remember how your decisions may favor some "unfairly". At least in this case you got to learn how to clean a gun, right?
 
Hey stop the presses! A college Freshman in ROTC is frustrated, questioning things and is a general pain in the butt, but it sounds like things are falling into place for OP:

Kanogo said:
I got to go to CORTRAMID East which was an incredible exposure experience. I really had a great time until I got to Marine week.
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Take OP out of the discussion. but I'll assume his facts are correct, especially:
Kanogo said:
However, one Midshipman who happened to be the son of a USMC Colonel from Cherry Point got exempted from participating in all this cleanup and got to select 15 other Midshipman to join him and his father (a Colonel) for an afternoon of golf at Camp Lejeune.
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We have now heard from every service branch other than Space Force and the Coast Guard about the important of securing and cleaning one's weapon, no matter how exhausted, dirty, and unmotivated one feels after a hot, sweaty NC day in the field.
Capt MJ said:
Priorities. Needs of the service first, which means you take care of required business - gear, people, security - before self. Except taking care of feet and food/rest/fluid is in the mix of required mission readiness actions, whether in an actual operational status, exercise, schoolhouse training or summer midshipman/cadet “just a taste” experience.
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If it is so important, then why exempt ANYONE, especially a Cadet/Mid. And then the Colonel lets the Mid invite 15 of his buddies to join him on the Golf Course to
GWU PNS said:
to impart some last words of advice before his pending retirement. I'll just say he earned that privilege
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Many people earn many privileges for many reasons, but they don't always exercise those privileges. Only a very small person would parade his privileges in front of those who haven't yet been given the chance to earn them.
GWU PNS said:
and the bad taste you have in your mouth speaks more about you than him or the Marine leadership.
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For the OP. Be very careful what you say, when you say it and who hears you say it. The responses to your post should tell you why.

I showed this to my AROTC AD son. He said this is the kind of JV bull**** that you won't forget, but won't occupy too much real estate in your head unless you allow it to. You'll remember the actors, but not for a good reason. He also said if this gets him off his game, then he will have a miserable military career.
 
Kanogo said:
This alone left a really bad taste in my mouth. Does an instance like this usually happen in the military?
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Frankly: Yep. Pretty often. Don't worry about it. Getting salty over it will just negatively impact yourself.

Instead, be happy for your colleague who got to do something neat instead of a useless menial task for once. With that kind of attitude, maybe you'll get picked for the boondoggle next time.

Lots of things really aren't fair. Just wait until you hear about how the Navy does fitness reports.

Pick your battles. Embrace the suck. Having to clean rifles is very insignificant. There will be many more injustices.
cb7893 said:
If it is so important, then why exempt ANYONE, especially a Cadet/Mid. And then the Colonel lets the Mid invite 15 of his buddies to join him on the Golf Course
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Solid mentorship from a senior officer is significantly better training value to support the objectives of CORTRAMID. I don't remember a single specific thing about the dozens of Forrestal Lectures I sat in almost a decade ago (except for ADM McRaven). I remember every personal interaction and mentorship session I had with a senior officer, and they were each substantial to my development as an officer. I can understand the value of the small session and why not everyone would get to go.

How salty are you gonna get when the Acting CNO drops by and now you have watch because all the female officers get to have lunch with the 4-star? It happens. It's important. There's more to consider than whether something is "fair" or not.
 
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If I were you OP, I would take this situation as a learning experience about how to mentally handle disappointment. Situations like this will happen again. You will have no control over when/how it happens. You do have control over how you let these instances effect you mentally. It is perfectly understandable to be disappointment, but don't let it create lasting negativity in your mindset. CORTRAMID East ended weeks ago. You still sound bitter in your post from just yesterday....let it go. Life is too short to focus or worry about this sort of stuff. It sucks some got some preferential treatment, but find the brightside of what you did experience.

You did the work...Completed hard things... those type of experiences are good. You also got to "play" Marine for a week and know for sure it is not for you. Now you know Marine and anything in the Navy that might be kinda Marine is not for you. Don't cry about what you missed. Smile about the experiences you got. Positivity will make you life much more enjoyable.
 
Herman_Snerd said:
I have empathy for the OP, It seems like no one in charge of Cortramid-Marine week even for a second considered the trainee’s state of exhaustion when holding them to a standard of cleaning their equipment after nearly a whole day of training.
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Ha Ha...got me... I was all ready to jump in and reply to your first line...then I read the rest of the post !
 
There was training with complaining, plus water, food, and sleep. Sounds like an average day in The Corps.
If giving you a glimpse into the glamorous life of a Marine was the objective, I say mission accomplished. :)
 
THParent said:
There was training with complaining, plus water, food, and sleep. Sounds like an average day in The Corps.
If giving you a glimpse into the glamorous life of a Marine was the objective, I say mission accomplished. :)
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Good point. DS says if a Marine is not b*tc#ing then something is wrong
 
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