Ivy League and the Service Academies megathread

[Ivy22]

Been seeing a lot of "[insert Ivy League school here] ROTC vs [insert SA here]" threads over the past couple weeks, so I thought let's make a thread to keep it all in one place.

Anyways, here are my humble $0.02 on this topic (as an Ivy League grad):

Ultimately, comparing the Ivy League schools to Service Academies is comparing apples to oranges in my opinion. They offer vastly different college experiences and attract different types of students. Both are great options to choose from, and I think it really comes down to what you as an individual are looking for in your college experience. If you want that Service Academy experience, then choose a Service Academy as you will not get that doing ROTC at an Ivy League. If you want the Ivy League experience, then choose an Ivy League school. Should you find yourself picking between acceptances at these schools, you really can't go wrong with either one. Take your time with deciding, go to admitted students' events in the spring, talk with current students at both schools, etc. This is probably one of the biggest choices in your life thus far, but once you make your decision (by May 1 of course), run with it and don't look back/play the "what if" game! Full steam ahead and excel at your chosen school during college. That's my biggest advice for deciding between these two options. At the end of the day, whether you choose to attend an SA or do ROTC, everyone who makes it through their respective program will commission as an O-1 (and get the same pay). Then, it's all about sustained superior performance, not where you went to school, when you're up for promotion.

 

[Holden100]

Having his preferred major has been a very strong consideration for my son, and it was a priority for him to be able to visit all of his top choices. I was glad he was able to do that. I think Capt MJ said it perfectly in another thread that you won't know what you don't know, and you'll never be able to compare the unknown path. Once you pick your path, embrace it. And to all the students who are on here asking for anonymous advice, please make sure you're also talking with your parents.

 

[chunky1]

Thank you for this. I was actually digging through old threads today on this topic. My DS just got a Nom yesterday and he has an LOA so I assume an offer of appointment is coming. He also has secured a ROTC Type 1 along with admittance to MIT. It's a hard choice and told him he needs to really think about what he wants before he makes his decision. Of course the SA would be a cheaper option for me since room and board at MIT is still pretty pricey but I don't want to mention that to him because if I make it about money he will base his decision on that. Money is a factor but we can swing it if he goes to MIT so I want it to be his choice.

I hear a lot about getting invited to the summer field training after sophomore year for AFROTC and if that doesn't happen, you're out. Does anyone know how many don't get invited and if it is under the control of the student or if it is an economic thing? Meaning what are the metrics used to determine if a student gets invited? Also, I heard that a while back Obama cancelled all scholarships for non-technical degrees, how often does that happen?

I'm just trying to get all the info for my DS so he can make an informed decision. I know it's a good decision to have to make but it's still a tough one for him.

 

[NavyHoops]

I highly agree with OP about visiting. I know not every applicant has the means to, but if possible go to CVWs and other university related programs. Especially if you have appointments/admittance in hand it really helps to know, ‘it’s real and I can go here.’ It helps envision your future. You can’t go wrong with either option, but the ‘right’ one is the place that feels the best to you and aligns with your goals. A SA isn’t for everyone and that is okay. Find the place that feels like home and that is where one will thrive and be the most successful.

 

[chunky1]

I highly agree with OP about visiting. I know not every applicant has the means to, but if possible go to CVWs and other university related programs. Especially if you have appointments/admittance in hand it really helps to know, ‘it’s real and I can go here.’ It helps envision your future. You can’t go wrong with either option, but the ‘right’ one is the place that feels the best to you and aligns with your goals. A SA isn’t for everyone and that is okay. Find the place that feels like home and that is where one will thrive and be the most successful.

My DS has been to USAFA a few times, once for a swim camp and he also went to summer seminar. We are planning on visiting MIT once his swim season is over. He also contacted the detachment at MIT and they told him to let him know when he's planning on visiting and they would make sure someone is there to show him around and answer questions. I've told him that something will help him make his decision and, as the OP stated, he can't look back after deciding.

 

[NavyHoops]

My DS has been to USAFA a few times, once for a swim camp and he also went to summer seminar. We are planning on visiting MIT once his swim season is over. He also contacted the detachment at MIT and they told him to let him know when he's planning on visiting and they would make sure someone is there to show him around and answer questions. I've told him that something will help him make his decision and, as the OP stated, he can't look back after deciding.

Agree. I had visited Princeton (athletic visit) a few weeks before USNA. I hated it. Within an hour I knew it was not the school for me. Within an hour on the yard, I knew USNA was my future home. One will stand out.

 

[Holden100]

Thank you for this. I was actually digging through old threads today on this topic. My DS just got a Nom yesterday and he has an LOA so I assume an offer of appointment is coming. He also has secured a ROTC Type 1 along with admittance to MIT. It's a hard choice and told him he needs to really think about what he wants before he makes his decision. Of course the SA would be a cheaper option for me since room and board at MIT is still pretty pricey but I don't want to mention that to him because if I make it about money he will base his decision on that. Money is a factor but we can swing it if he goes to MIT so I want it to be his choice.

I hear a lot about getting invited to the summer field training after sophomore year for AFROTC and if that doesn't happen, you're out. Does anyone know how many don't get invited and if it is under the control of the student or if it is an economic thing? Meaning what are the metrics used to determine if a student gets invited? Also, I heard that a while back Obama cancelled all scholarships for non-technical degrees, how often does that happen?

I'm just trying to get all the info for my DS so he can make an informed decision. I know it's a good decision to have to make but it's still a tough one for him.

Hoping someone in the know can add some insight on the AFROTC questions for you - all really good questions. I completely understand where you're coming from on the room/board issue and not wanting the decision to be based upon paying for room/board. Just had that conversation with my son a few days ago. Good luck to your son, and I hope someone in the know on the scholarship questions can chime in!

 

[NavyHoops]

Thank you for this. I was actually digging through old threads today on this topic. My DS just got a Nom yesterday and he has an LOA so I assume an offer of appointment is coming. He also has secured a ROTC Type 1 along with admittance to MIT. It's a hard choice and told him he needs to really think about what he wants before he makes his decision. Of course the SA would be a cheaper option for me since room and board at MIT is still pretty pricey but I don't want to mention that to him because if I make it about money he will base his decision on that. Money is a factor but we can swing it if he goes to MIT so I want it to be his choice.

I hear a lot about getting invited to the summer field training after sophomore year for AFROTC and if that doesn't happen, you're out. Does anyone know how many don't get invited and if it is under the control of the student or if it is an economic thing? Meaning what are the metrics used to determine if a student gets invited? Also, I heard that a while back Obama cancelled all scholarships for non-technical degrees, how often does that happen?

I'm just trying to get all the info for my DS so he can make an informed decision. I know it's a good decision to have to make but it's still a tough one for him.

You can look at past years in the ROTC thread about the rates of those being selected for summer training. It has varied over the years. I believe it was 2-3 years ago there was a much bigger cut than had happened previously and it really shook things up. Non-tech majors seemed to take a big hit. Some Cadets with great grades who happened to be non-tech (and I also believe not pursuing aviation) seemed to really get hit the hardest. Also, I don’t believe Obama or any other President had anything to do with any of this. Needs of the service and the selection criteria is handled by their services. Attrition and retention rates of career fields and each class drive most of these decisions.

 

[jbm2m]

Thanks for starting this thread, as my DD might be staring down this decision in the next couple of months. She’s almost hoping the waivers don’t work out so she doesn’t have to choose.

We’ve been fortunate to visit all the academies to which she is applying, as well as Cornell (albeit unofficially - she will do a formal experience before making a decision if she’s fortunate enough to have that difficult decision. Our observation is that, even amongst the academies, the culture and experiences are vastly different. USAFA felt closer to civilian school than West Point (not a knock on USAFA!)… It really is a tough choice, and I have no idea which way she will go if given the option.

 

[Ivy22]

Thanks for starting this thread, as my DD might be staring down this decision in the next couple of months. She’s almost hoping the waivers don’t work out so she doesn’t have to choose.

We’ve been fortunate to visit all the academies to which she is applying, as well as Cornell (albeit unofficially - she will do a formal experience before making a decision if she’s fortunate enough to have that difficult decision. Our observation is that, even amongst the academies, the culture and experiences are vastly different. USAFA felt closer to civilian school than West Point (not a knock on USAFA!)… It really is a tough choice, and I have no idea which way she will go if given the option.

For sure, and the culture among the Ivies (and MIT, Stanford, etc.) also vary greatly. Best way to get a feel for each school is to visit it as well as talk with current students and alumni.

I'm sure your daughter will be happy with her choice, no matter what it is!

 

[Seniormom]

So my kid got a Type 1 scholarship and acceptance to Yale and chose USAFA. I was pretty bummed as I thought rotc was a best of both worlds situation but kid thought otherwise. Kid also wants to be a pilot - greater chance coming out of USAFA (usually). But the biggest and unexpected upside for the kid (other than kid is enjoying usafa) is that the kid decided not to be a stem major. Would not have been able to make that choice if went to Yale.

 

[Ivy22]

So my kid got a Type 1 scholarship and acceptance to Yale and chose USAFA. I was pretty bummed as I thought rotc was a best of both worlds situation but kid thought otherwise. Kid also wants to be a pilot - greater chance coming out of USAFA (usually). But the biggest and unexpected upside for the kid (other than kid is enjoying usafa) is that the kid decided not to be a stem major. Would not have been able to make that choice if went to Yale.

Might be the case for AFROTC, not too sure how that process works to convert STEM to non-STEM. Several of my friends and I at my school were able to convert our STEM NROTC scholarships to non-STEM pretty easily once we decided on our majors first year.

 

[dberkeley]

It might have been asked before here. I wonder if anyone has experience with ROTC and D1 sports (not football, basketball for sure). Is it a no go in general?

 

[Ivy22]

It might have been asked before here. I wonder if anyone has experience with ROTC and D1 sports (not football, basketball for sure). Is it a no go in general?

It's certainly possible. We had midshipmen on several D1 Varsity teams at my school including crew, track & field, cross country, swimming, rugby, and lacrosse, just off the top of my head. They were excused from unit PT while they were in-season.

I'm sure you'll want to work it out with your coach and the unit, but it can be done!

 

[NavyHoops]

It might have been asked before here. I wonder if anyone has experience with ROTC and D1 sports (not football, basketball for sure). Is it a no go in general?

Over the years on this forum, it seems to vary. Depends on school, team and unit. The bottom line is how well does your son coordinate with both sides. And how willing are the coach and unit willing to understand he has competing priorities. I will say it is hard. I played at USNA so coaches had no choice but to balance our obligations. I will say even then, academics and then sports were the priorities for even us. Competing at the D1 level is no joke and takes an extreme amount of time to even ride the bench. If he is on athletic scholarship, I would expect a coach to think he or she is the priority. It’s also difficult, even when balanced, as you know you are missing things. It takes work to show your face in a battalion even when in season, traveling and exhausted. Out of sight, is out of mind. So it takes a lot to juggle it.

 

[Gaffer]

May be I am so late to the thread. I am using my DS's profile to post a question here..
got accepted to USMA and USAFA and a bunch of Ivys including a couple of BSMD program. Wants to serve our nation and passionate about medicine. He does want Med no swaying from that. He did not apply to ROTC. Financials matter but I also want him to choose what is better.
It is doable but yet a tough tough path to med from academies or other private/public schools. it is only getting tougher i hear. Not in med and know nothing of either worlds ( Academies or Medical profession..) so it is all hearsay and reading..

will he be able to do ROTC as a sophomore? Is that a viable path ? Should be consider joining now itself in ROTC but is that doable given that dates were done in Dec/Jan I think. Sorry for my ignorance. Could he apply and do ROTC as a sophomore & finish his bsmd and join service direct? What will this look like in terms of service and role ( officer role still or his one year of missing out will affect ? )

For a defined Med path ( I know it is less 4 days to make a call now and some programs extended deadlines. But not the ivies ) , is it better to take rotc pathway?

Looking forward to hearing back!
Best
Mom

 

[Capt MJ]

May be I am so late to the thread. I am using my DS's profile to post a question here..
got accepted to USMA and USAFA and a bunch of Ivys including a couple of BSMD program. Wants to serve our nation and passionate about medicine. He does want Med no swaying from that. He did not apply to ROTC. Financials matter but I also want him to choose what is better.
It is doable but yet a tough tough path to med from academies or other private/public schools. it is only getting tougher i hear. Not in med and know nothing of either worlds ( Academies or Medical profession..) so it is all hearsay and reading..

will he be able to do ROTC as a sophomore? Is that a viable path ? Should be consider joining now itself in ROTC but is that doable given that dates were done in Dec/Jan I think. Sorry for my ignorance. Could he apply and do ROTC as a sophomore & finish his bsmd and join service direct? What will this look like in terms of service and role ( officer role still or his one year of missing out will affect ? )

For a defined Med path ( I know it is less 4 days to make a call now and some programs extended deadlines. But not the ivies ) , is it better to take rotc pathway?

Looking forward to hearing back!
Best
Mom

Take a look at this current thread. Many common issues are addressed.

Thread 'United States Naval Academy vs Brown BS/MD'
https://www.serviceacademyforums.co...ed-states-naval-academy-vs-brown-bs-md.95252/

Your son should drill down in the primary sources, as well as contact the pre-med program people at USMA and USAFA, and talk to the recruiting officer at his target AROTC or AFROTC units, to determine how the medical school path works. He should be clear on whether his primary goal is medical school or military service, and if he wants nothing to do with non-medical paths in the military, ever, or would be willing to do that first. The SAs and ROTC programs primary mission is to produce warriors, though narrow paths exist to Med Corps.

There are also threads each year on going to medical school out of service academies and ROTC programs, as well as later in-service transfers, getting it and using veterans’ benefits to pay for medical school, going to the military medical school at USUHS and being active duty from Day I, taking advantage of the HPSP scholarships available for medical school (where the military gets most of its M.D.s. The Search function inside SAF can help, as can external Google searches that use the SAF URL in the search string.

 

[Ivy22]

May be I am so late to the thread. I am using my DS's profile to post a question here..
got accepted to USMA and USAFA and a bunch of Ivys including a couple of BSMD program. Wants to serve our nation and passionate about medicine. He does want Med no swaying from that. He did not apply to ROTC. Financials matter but I also want him to choose what is better.
It is doable but yet a tough tough path to med from academies or other private/public schools. it is only getting tougher i hear. Not in med and know nothing of either worlds ( Academies or Medical profession..) so it is all hearsay and reading..

will he be able to do ROTC as a sophomore? Is that a viable path ? Should be consider joining now itself in ROTC but is that doable given that dates were done in Dec/Jan I think. Sorry for my ignorance. Could he apply and do ROTC as a sophomore & finish his bsmd and join service direct? What will this look like in terms of service and role ( officer role still or his one year of missing out will affect ? )

For a defined Med path ( I know it is less 4 days to make a call now and some programs extended deadlines. But not the ivies ) , is it better to take rotc pathway?

Looking forward to hearing back!
Best
Mom

You can join ROTC as a sophomore.

I think some branches have programs to recruit medical students, and they'll graduate and commission as doctors in that branch after they finish medical school. Don't have to do ROTC in college to do these programs. There are similar programs for law students at law schools to become JAGs.

 

[Holden100]

May be I am so late to the thread. I am using my DS's profile to post a question here..
got accepted to USMA and USAFA and a bunch of Ivys including a couple of BSMD program. Wants to serve our nation and passionate about medicine. He does want Med no swaying from that. He did not apply to ROTC. Financials matter but I also want him to choose what is better.
It is doable but yet a tough tough path to med from academies or other private/public schools. it is only getting tougher i hear. Not in med and know nothing of either worlds ( Academies or Medical profession..) so it is all hearsay and reading..

will he be able to do ROTC as a sophomore? Is that a viable path ? Should be consider joining now itself in ROTC but is that doable given that dates were done in Dec/Jan I think. Sorry for my ignorance. Could he apply and do ROTC as a sophomore & finish his bsmd and join service direct? What will this look like in terms of service and role ( officer role still or his one year of missing out will affect ? )

For a defined Med path ( I know it is less 4 days to make a call now and some programs extended deadlines. But not the ivies ) , is it better to take rotc pathway?

Looking forward to hearing back!
Best
Mom

My younger son started asking around about this a couple years ago, and all of the advice he was given was if he thought he wanted to pursue medical school after commissioning he needed to check out the Army, and more specifically, Army ROTC. It's definitely possible from USNA or USMA (I'm not sure about USAFA), but your choice of majors is limited to primarily Chemistry or Life Sciences. Of course, your son could branch AD and then go to med school later (either from an academy or ROTC). This is something my son is not ruling out. Most of my older son's friends who plan on going to medical school are taking a year, or longer, to work and not going directly to med school.

 

[Capt MJ]

You can join ROTC as a sophomore.

I think some branches have programs to recruit medical students, and they'll graduate and commission as doctors in that branch after they finish medical school. Don't have to do ROTC in college to do these programs. There are similar programs for law students at law schools to become JAGs.

The majority of Army, Navy and Air Force doctors come from direct commissioning programs: civilian undergrad, civilian med school perhaps with HPSP scholarship, then commissioning, some officer training in Newport, RI, then off to Med Corps career. Many of the Staff Corps officers across the services come in this way.